Discussion Dates: Friday 28th August to Friday 11th September
What would you give this book out of 10 and why?
Gen: 9/10. I loved this book! SO fascinating and well written. The character of Alma was so believable and interesting, I loved the section about her childhood and her life in the house and her intellectual life. I would take off one mark because I thought the storyline with Prudence was just weird.
Mel: 8/10 I really enjoyed this book. I agree with you Gen - fascinating and well written. I was really interested in Alma and what she would make of life. It was a long read and it really stayed with me once I had finished it. I thought about it a lot. I got a little weary of it all when we were in Tahiti (I guess I didn't understand Alma's burning desire to understand her ex-husband, but on reflection I get that this was a part of her nature - to know and understand everything) and found myself skim reading that section a little bit. However when she was in Amsterdam towards the end of her life and her friendship/connection with Wallace really made me sit up and take notice.
Jane: I wanted to give it an 8, guys, but I felt like it was a guilty indulgence. In other words I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, but I guess I felt it wasn't very 'literary' and it wasn't extending my 'literary comprehension'. I am a snob, I realise (I was influenced by my judgement of EPL) and I felt like a child again when I used to read Sweet Valley High books under my covers because my mother forbid me to read them.
Mel: So what DO you give it Jane??
Jane: Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, big decisions.
Sharyn: I have not yet finished the book (I'm still in Tahiti) but at the moment I would give this 9/10. I really enjoyed it. The fact that I have (almost) managed to get through a very thick book in the midst of an international move is testament to how interesting I found it. I loved Alma as a character. It is so refreshing to read about someone who is the antithesis of the typical literary heroine: apparently ugly, at times selfish, self loathing, insecure and emotionally immature, yet intelligent, industrious, sensual, self-aware, bold, vulnerable and adventurous.
Lynne: Wah! As the person that brought such a strange choice to book club (more on that later), I am so pleased that it did not tank completely. Like you ladies, I really liked it, much to my surpise. I found it a rollicking good tale that made me think about girl power and how great it was to find it in a book set in such an unlikely time/setting. I thought Alma was awesome. Strong (physically and mentally) and capable and unique in a world that had far lower expectations for her. A few points off however for the length. I reckon we could have achieved just as much with a few hundred pages sheared off. For example, when she left for Tahiti, she could have said "and Alma arrived 8 months later". Instead she described the trip and the sailors and her room and her luggage and the stop over in Peru (or Argentina, or somewhere that I have erased from my memory because I was bored) and who cares what she wore etc etc. Just get there already. 8.5/10.
Carissa: 8/10. The story was fascinating. It reflected vividly the life of the period - the fact that stealing plants from Kew was punishable by death; the sort of travel being undertaken at the time. Elizabeth Gilbert's writing thoroughly captivated me, as in her descriptions of the ships, crews, seas, foreign places and people encountered on the various voyages undertaken by Captain Cook, Henry and then Alma. Her descriptions of mosses and vegetation were engrossing. Although her development of the characters of Henry, Alma, Beatrice and, indeed, Retta were plausible, Prudence's character was, to me, unbelievable and inhuman.
Lucy - 7/10 I enjoyed the book but not quite as much as it sounds you all did. I felt that there were a few aspects to it that were not necessary or not fully developed which frustrated me.
2. Did this book surprise you given the huge success of Eat, Pray, Love?
Gen: I haven't read EPL but I saw the movie and HATED it so was a bit unsure about this book.
Mel: The fact that I had totally pre-judged anything written by Elizabeth Gilbert as nothing that I would want to read (based on the EPL franchise which I have never actually read or seen) is what makes me love our book club so much. I never would have picked up this book on my own volition. We were at the beach one morning and I was reading The Signature of All Things and the woman next to me was reading EPL and I wanted to tell her to put down that clap-trap and get her hands on my book. But maybe I am also being too snobby about EPL and should give it a go at some point.
Jane: Similarly to Mel, I completely pre-judged Eat, Pray, Love and Elizabeth Gilbert. I bet I could give any one of you the mandate to travel the world eating, praying and loving and you could also write a best seller. However, there is no doubt from reading Signature of All Things that Gilbert can spin a bloody good yarn.
Sharyn: This book totally surprised me. EPL was an easy read and enjoyable enough but it was pretty self-indulgent. I was sceptical about reading this book given EPL and the drama associated with the author's personal life (which I read about in MY guilty pleasure, The Women's Weekly...don't judge me). So it really surprised me that she could write such a well-researched and well written book. It made me wonder whether she wrote this first but couldn't get it published so she wrote EPL as a means of getting herself into the market.
Lynne: I did not read EPL or see the movie because I pre-judged it as commercial crap that I would hate. When I was looking for books for my nominations I went to the ABC's "Book Club" site and checked out what Marieke Hardy has been reading as I always find her reviews hilarious (and insightful) even if I don't always like the books she likes (exhibit A: Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse 5, yikes!). She had just finished The Signature of All Things and described how she wept at the end because she had never felt like she wanted to leave a character, and said it was as though a friend had died. Pretty dramatic stuff but after reading some other reviews I hoped it my be made of the kind of stuff we could get our teeth into. I am stunned that Gilbert could write something so comprehensive and detailed after appearing so shallow in EPL. Girl-power to her too.
Lucy - I did not realise she was the same author as Eat Pray Love. I have not read or watched it but I think I would have pre judged her fairly harshly had I known.
3. The Signature of All Things takes as its first focus not the book’s heroine, Alma Whittaker, but her rough-and-tumble father, Henry. Why do you think Elizabeth
Gilbert made this choice in her narration, and why are the first fifty pages essential to the rest of the novel?
Gen: her father was such an enormous influence on her life and his reaction to his childhood was such a big part of why he became who he was so it was important to get this background
Mel: Henry was a huge character. We needed to spend that time with him at the start to understand just what an imposing and proud figure he was. I loved the section of the book when he was on Cook's ship. The climate. The people. The sea. The land. So interesting and appeared to be so well researched by Gilbert
Jane: Yes, loved Henry as a character and I loved his story at the beginning. I agree, Gen, he was an enormous influence on Alma and we needed to see what made him tick.
Lynne: I loved Henry and the story of his beginnings. I thought it was really important to set the tone for that time in history when scientific discovery was on the verge of blowing everybody's tiny mind. Imagine for hundreds of years thinking that a divine entity was responsible for everything and then have explorers and adventurers and academics start revealing their alternative theories - it would have been sensational. To begin to understand, in detail, what it took to start collecting specimens and get them back to safety under such trying conditions, given the protracted timeframes, made me reconsider the achievements of our forebears. Just amazing, and very impressed that Elizabeth Gilbert opened up that world and made it so compelling from the beginning. Henry was a rogue and I wanted him to succeed. He paved the way for Alma and I needed to hear his story before I could believe hers.
Carissa: Henry's driven character and experiences in England, overseas, in Holland and America help us to understand Alma's determination and attention to detail and research. His life in all these places and his attitudes set the scene for Ama's life and preoccupations.
Lucy - as you've all said the story needed that foundation. We would not have been able to understand Alma, the circumstance into which she was born, her doggedness, her intelligence etc if the story had started with her birth in Philadelphia. Henry also played such an important role in the whole story even after Alma took centre stage that we needed to understand him more deeply.
Sharyn: Now that I have finished the book, I can see how starting with Henry and his association with key scientific and exploration figures such as Joseph Banks and Captain Cook provided symmetry with the ending where Alma was associating with, or at least her ideas were on par with, key scientific thinkers of the day such as Charles Darwin. As Lynne said, it enabled the reader to see what an amazing time this was in terms of science and exploration.
4. Alma Whittaker grows up in the richest family in Philadelphia. In what ways does her father’s fortune set her free? In what ways is it a prison?
Mel: She has the financial means to be able to spend her life actually doing what she loves. This is a luxury, even in today's society, and so much more a luxury in the time that the book is set. I'm not sure that the money is her prison, but certainly her gender is. Having not married till so late and having it fail so badly there was no other option than to stay in the family home and do what was required of her. It is only after her father's death that she is able to break these shackles.
Lynne: well said Mel. I'm not sure the family fortune was responsible for shrinking her world, I think her gender was responsible for that, but she fought against it well; writing to other European botanists and publishing in journals etc. Her father also made a prisoner of her by relying so heavily on her and making her believe she was indispensible.
Carissa: Alma has access to Henry's library, plant houses, illustrious contacts, all the discoveries of the time and has absolutely no material hardship or privation. However, she is isolated from children of her own age, until Prudence arrives, and is very egotistical.
Lucy - Henry's fortune definitely allows Alma to fulfill her potential, from the massive library that laid the foundation for her vast scientific knowledge to the gardens and grounds she explored so much as a child. More so than the fortune in shaping her are Henry and Beatrice's attitudes to what she is and should be capable of contributing to society regardless of her gender.
Mel: Lucy - I think that doggedness is a great description for Alma!
5. Discuss Alma’s relationship with Prudence. Why do you think that Gilbert choose for Prudence to be the Whittaker’s adopted daughter rather than their biological daughter? What affect did Prudence have on Alma at various points in the novel?
Gen: As mentioned I had a real problem with the character of Prudence ... I guess she had to be adopted in order to make the character pretty??!!
Mel: I thought that Prudence was there to show what a difficult person Alma was to get along with, but Prudence ended up being far pricklier than Alma, and Alma appeared soft and venerable in comparison. Why adopted? I'm not sure. But as Prudence was adopted so late there was certainly no tug-of-war in terms of who was 'favored' in Henry's affections.
Sharyn: Yes, I agree that Prudence was a difficult character to understand. It seemed odd to me that someone who was so morally upright would be so emotionally void, cold, uncommunicative and elusive. And how many stunning people do you know who act like that so no-one pays them any attention?! I think it was the timing of her adoption more than her adoptive status which was more significant. Prudence came into Alma's life at a time when Alma's character had been formed, when she was aware of her strengths and weaknesses and after she had enjoyed the sole affection of her parents for a long time. It was natural for her to feel resentful, competitive and inadequate. Notwithstanding the fact that they did not have a close relationship, Alma clearly felt close enough to - or at least trusting of - Prudence to confide in her about George. Later in the book after Hannah reveals the sacrifice that Prudence made for Ama, Prudence acts as a moral compass for Alma.
Lynne: Prudence...yes, Prudence....what is your purpose? Beautiful and pious, stained by her mother's prostitution, she transforms herself into a martyr and I can't quite fathom why. I think she was adopted into the family to provide a daily reminder of what can go wrong if you don't follow the rules according to Alma's strict mother (and wasn't she a cold thing!). Alma was so used to being the centre of her parent's attention (and feeling loved and appreciated for her intelligence) that having an adopted sister that so obviously did not like her was a good way of keeping Alma grounded. She had to work hard around Prudence, and I admire her for trying when many of us would have given up.
Lucy - Prudence was obviously essential for Gilbert to develop the thorn in Alma's theory of evolution - the unnecessary self sacrifice that humans make for others. However, I feel she was very poorly developed as a character and was rather unconvincing at times. Adoption was necessary so that she and Alma were peers and Alma's jealousy and sense of competition could emerge but I felt that given the amount of time the two girls spent together and the sacrifice that Prudence made for Alma there would have been a greater sense of relationship between them. Even if Prudence had not wanted to draw more attention to herself in public she would not have been so cold towards Alma throughout their whole lives. It did not seem congruous to her character of philanthropy to be so unfeeling. I also found her an unsatisfactory part of the story.
Carissa: Prudence has to be adopted, in order to have no "blood is thicker than water" reason for her self-sacrifice. This is a perfect example of the conundrum that confounds Alma's theory of evolution. Their relationship is, in my view, unrealistically portrayed. Prudence shows no compassion, warmth, or even interest in Alma, with whom she spends most of every day. Alma yearns for some sort of closeness, but is always discouraged by Prudence's apparent coldness. This makes it impossible to understand Prudence's enormous sacrifice.
Sharyn: Prudence's purpose is much clearer at the end of the book. Now that I have finished the book, I think Lucy and Carissa have hit it on the head. Very insightful ladies.
6. One of the more unsettling themes of The Signature of All Things is Alma’s habitual masturbation. How does her autoeroticism fit into the rest of the novel, and is the book strengthened or weakened by its presence?
Mel: When Alma first took to the binding closet I was pretty shocked. It actually made me feel sorry for her as this physical contact and release was obviously so important to her and instead of being able to enjoy a fulfilling sex life with another person she was stuck in this ground hog existence of pleasuring herself and wondering and imagining what it might be like with another person.
Sharyn: This was one of the most refreshing aspects of the book for me. I don't recall reading a book set in older times that addresses this issue. I didn't find Alma's habitual masturbation sad (I thought it was empowering given her circumstances and how bold it would presumably have been for a woman to do that at the time) but I found it really sad when she wasn't able to have a sex life with Ambrose. The fact that she had overcome her insecurity about her body image, age and virginity to accept his hand in marriage and force the issue about sex, only to be rejected, would have been devastating.
Lynne: I didn't find it "unsettling" - I thought it was fantastic to encounter such a 'real' person in a novel. Of course sexual urges existed in the 1800's! It was brave of Gilbert to include it as such an unflinching & recurring theme in this book. I thought initially it stuck out like a sore thumb , but Alma's life is dedicated to discovery, so a little self discovery should be part of the bargain. That her urges were so strong (and frequent) certainly surprised me, but as Sharyn says, very refreshing. I think it strengthened the book. We have to accept our heroines and all their attributes, whether we relate to them or not. So good that female sexuality was not ignored, I was just disappointed for Alma that it went so unfulfilled for so long.
Lucy - I am not sure how much this added to the story for me. It was definitely diversion from the evolution theme and I guess the whole book couldn't be about moss, but I felt it was purely that.
Carissa: This theme is, perhaps, part of Gilbert's portrayal of Alma's isolation from relationships with others. It fits with her curiosity about all aspects of the natural world. It did not seem to strengthen or weaken the book, but was a consistent theme. The incident with Tomorrow Morning seemed less plausible.
7. Alma’s decision to devote her life to studying mosses is compared to a “religious conversion” (p. 163). In The Signature of All Things, science and religion often intertwine. Are they ever finally reconciled? If so, how? If not, why not?
Gen: I really liked the ruminations about the nature of science and religion, a never ending but fascinating debate... sorry no definitive answers from me
Lynne: ah yes, Gen, these questions could fill hours of contemplation, but who has the time in the 21st century for that?
Lucy - I found it very interesting to think how the debate between science and religion continues and how controversial Darwin's theories were at the time and how we still have not been able to reconcile these two. Alma feels that it is reconciled in her mind, she doesn;t need anything more than what she has been given in this world. I don't feel for a moment though that the novel reconciles the two.
Carissa: I thought the debate between the two was extremely well constructed and central to Alma's researches - as it was for Darwin. Although Alma resolved it for herself, Gilbert did not attempt to resolve it for the reader.
8. Alma’s husband, Ambrose Pike, offers her a marriage filled with deep respect, spiritual love, intellectual adventure-and positively no sex. Should she have been contented with this arrangement?
Mel: I think so. I would have. At her age, at that period of time she was very very unlikely to meet anyone else. We don't need companionship to be happy - but it sure does help! But good on Alma for knowing that she couldn't tolerate it and bucking the system of women simply putting up with whatever was going on in the martial bed. And at the end of the day - she never would have had life altering adventures to Tahiti and then onto Holland if she had have stayed married to Ambrose.
Jane: Yes, I think so. He clearly loved her, she loved him. But I guess Alma's physical sexual need (and maybe a need to feel desired physically) was a theme that Gilbert created and needed to continue. I thought these intercepts in the plot were so far-fetched, but equally made the twists and turns that made the narrative enjoyable. Quote from man friend David who is sitting here as I write this (and being a complete snob about Elizabeth Gilbert), "Don't build your marriage around sex".
Lynne: Its a tough one to answer when you know that Alma had a libido that demanded some attention. Your average 49 year old virgin would probably have been overjoyed to find a younger bloke, that could be considered her intellectual equal, willing to devote the rest of his life to a celibate relationship with her, but not our sex-pot. So, she busted a move on him while he was relaxing in the bath and it all went to hell, very quickly. I was shattered for her, but glad that she put an end to it when she realised that it would not fulfil her vision of a happy marriage.
Sharyn: Ahh, Lynne, I am laughing out loud while reading your comments on this one. Love your turn of phrase. Classic!
Lucy - This is another part of the story that I don't feel works very well. I don't understand why the marriage was important to Ambrose. Why couldn't they have continued as they were? Working alongside each other and sharing each other;s minds? It seems to me unlikely that he would have proposed but then how would Gilbert have ever got Alma to Tahiti? Although I also felt that the reason for her trip to Tahiti was also improbable.
Carissa: Gilbert described the feelings and aspirations of Alma and Ambrose extremely well, but I could only accept Ambrose's attitude in terms of his being inhuman. I found his character completely implausible.
9. Ambrose’s spirituality eventually destroys him, whereas that of the Reverend Welles, the Tahitian missionary, enables him to cope with isolation and professional failure. What is the difference between the two men’s spiritual understandings? Why is one vision destructive and the other saving?
Mel: I have no idea. Can someone please enlighten me?!
Lynne: it is this question that has haunted me since Mel posted these questions up a week ago. Am I so vacuous that I can't find an answer to this important question? Yes. Bugger.
Lucy - Ambrose's spirituality seems delusionary most of the time. It does not seem to be grounded in religious theory at all. Whereas Reverend Welles's is based on religious principles and doctrines. Ambrose's spirituality is highly self centred and is only about his own salvation, the antithesis to Reverend Welles. Welles lives his life according to the philanthropic principles of his faith, Ambrose will never be fulfilled by his spirituality because he wants to be an angel!!!
Carissa: As Lucy says, Welles is following religious principles of loving your neighbour, condemning nobody, serving all and acccepting differences. He is not remotely self-seeking. Ambrose is portrayed as gifted, but vulnerable, passive, fragile and completely detached from the world.
10. Alma claims at the end of the novel, “I have never felt a need to invent a world beyond this world. . . . All I ever wanted to know was this world” (p. 497). How has this limitation to her curiosity helped her? Has it harmed her?
Lucy - this was a good way for Gilbert to avoid a detailed debate or decision on the theme of science and religion. What I found more interesting and that I had not realised was how much Darwin stayed out of this debate. I was interested to hear that he did not respond either to praise or criticism about his work and was totally unconfrontational about or defensive of his work.
Carissa: I agree with Lucy's theory that Gilbert uses Alma's specific curiosity and its restrictions to avoid having to engage with the religious and scientific debate. It was extremely interesting to have this story linked with the publication of and reaction to Darwin's book.
sharyn: Lucy and Carissa, you are both on fire! Thanks for enlightening me.
11. Is there anything else you would like to ask or say about ‘The Signature of All Things’?
Mel: The book got me thinking about the nature of family and how we need our family so much when we are young and how we revert to that need at the end of our lives. Even though her family was small and fragmented, at the end of her life Alma had a warm relationship with Prudence and was taken in by her mothers family in Holland. After Tahiti I was worried that Alma would be set adrift completely and die all alone. I was so happy with her decision to give Holland a try and loved the members of her mothers family for taking her with such open arms (even if she did have to prove her intellectual credentials to her uncle to start with).
Lynne: I'm really glad I read it. I hope Gilbert now writes a sequel from Prudence's perspective. And then a 3rd novel explaining Ambrose Pike. Then we'd get the full picture.
Jane: You ladies are all so insightful and thoughtful. Also you all have a wicked and clever turn of phrase. I love reading your comments. Brilliant.
Gen: 9/10. I loved this book! SO fascinating and well written. The character of Alma was so believable and interesting, I loved the section about her childhood and her life in the house and her intellectual life. I would take off one mark because I thought the storyline with Prudence was just weird.
Mel: 8/10 I really enjoyed this book. I agree with you Gen - fascinating and well written. I was really interested in Alma and what she would make of life. It was a long read and it really stayed with me once I had finished it. I thought about it a lot. I got a little weary of it all when we were in Tahiti (I guess I didn't understand Alma's burning desire to understand her ex-husband, but on reflection I get that this was a part of her nature - to know and understand everything) and found myself skim reading that section a little bit. However when she was in Amsterdam towards the end of her life and her friendship/connection with Wallace really made me sit up and take notice.
Jane: I wanted to give it an 8, guys, but I felt like it was a guilty indulgence. In other words I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, but I guess I felt it wasn't very 'literary' and it wasn't extending my 'literary comprehension'. I am a snob, I realise (I was influenced by my judgement of EPL) and I felt like a child again when I used to read Sweet Valley High books under my covers because my mother forbid me to read them.
Mel: So what DO you give it Jane??
Jane: Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, big decisions.
Sharyn: I have not yet finished the book (I'm still in Tahiti) but at the moment I would give this 9/10. I really enjoyed it. The fact that I have (almost) managed to get through a very thick book in the midst of an international move is testament to how interesting I found it. I loved Alma as a character. It is so refreshing to read about someone who is the antithesis of the typical literary heroine: apparently ugly, at times selfish, self loathing, insecure and emotionally immature, yet intelligent, industrious, sensual, self-aware, bold, vulnerable and adventurous.
Lynne: Wah! As the person that brought such a strange choice to book club (more on that later), I am so pleased that it did not tank completely. Like you ladies, I really liked it, much to my surpise. I found it a rollicking good tale that made me think about girl power and how great it was to find it in a book set in such an unlikely time/setting. I thought Alma was awesome. Strong (physically and mentally) and capable and unique in a world that had far lower expectations for her. A few points off however for the length. I reckon we could have achieved just as much with a few hundred pages sheared off. For example, when she left for Tahiti, she could have said "and Alma arrived 8 months later". Instead she described the trip and the sailors and her room and her luggage and the stop over in Peru (or Argentina, or somewhere that I have erased from my memory because I was bored) and who cares what she wore etc etc. Just get there already. 8.5/10.
Carissa: 8/10. The story was fascinating. It reflected vividly the life of the period - the fact that stealing plants from Kew was punishable by death; the sort of travel being undertaken at the time. Elizabeth Gilbert's writing thoroughly captivated me, as in her descriptions of the ships, crews, seas, foreign places and people encountered on the various voyages undertaken by Captain Cook, Henry and then Alma. Her descriptions of mosses and vegetation were engrossing. Although her development of the characters of Henry, Alma, Beatrice and, indeed, Retta were plausible, Prudence's character was, to me, unbelievable and inhuman.
Lucy - 7/10 I enjoyed the book but not quite as much as it sounds you all did. I felt that there were a few aspects to it that were not necessary or not fully developed which frustrated me.
2. Did this book surprise you given the huge success of Eat, Pray, Love?
Gen: I haven't read EPL but I saw the movie and HATED it so was a bit unsure about this book.
Mel: The fact that I had totally pre-judged anything written by Elizabeth Gilbert as nothing that I would want to read (based on the EPL franchise which I have never actually read or seen) is what makes me love our book club so much. I never would have picked up this book on my own volition. We were at the beach one morning and I was reading The Signature of All Things and the woman next to me was reading EPL and I wanted to tell her to put down that clap-trap and get her hands on my book. But maybe I am also being too snobby about EPL and should give it a go at some point.
Jane: Similarly to Mel, I completely pre-judged Eat, Pray, Love and Elizabeth Gilbert. I bet I could give any one of you the mandate to travel the world eating, praying and loving and you could also write a best seller. However, there is no doubt from reading Signature of All Things that Gilbert can spin a bloody good yarn.
Sharyn: This book totally surprised me. EPL was an easy read and enjoyable enough but it was pretty self-indulgent. I was sceptical about reading this book given EPL and the drama associated with the author's personal life (which I read about in MY guilty pleasure, The Women's Weekly...don't judge me). So it really surprised me that she could write such a well-researched and well written book. It made me wonder whether she wrote this first but couldn't get it published so she wrote EPL as a means of getting herself into the market.
Lynne: I did not read EPL or see the movie because I pre-judged it as commercial crap that I would hate. When I was looking for books for my nominations I went to the ABC's "Book Club" site and checked out what Marieke Hardy has been reading as I always find her reviews hilarious (and insightful) even if I don't always like the books she likes (exhibit A: Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse 5, yikes!). She had just finished The Signature of All Things and described how she wept at the end because she had never felt like she wanted to leave a character, and said it was as though a friend had died. Pretty dramatic stuff but after reading some other reviews I hoped it my be made of the kind of stuff we could get our teeth into. I am stunned that Gilbert could write something so comprehensive and detailed after appearing so shallow in EPL. Girl-power to her too.
Lucy - I did not realise she was the same author as Eat Pray Love. I have not read or watched it but I think I would have pre judged her fairly harshly had I known.
3. The Signature of All Things takes as its first focus not the book’s heroine, Alma Whittaker, but her rough-and-tumble father, Henry. Why do you think Elizabeth
Gilbert made this choice in her narration, and why are the first fifty pages essential to the rest of the novel?
Gen: her father was such an enormous influence on her life and his reaction to his childhood was such a big part of why he became who he was so it was important to get this background
Mel: Henry was a huge character. We needed to spend that time with him at the start to understand just what an imposing and proud figure he was. I loved the section of the book when he was on Cook's ship. The climate. The people. The sea. The land. So interesting and appeared to be so well researched by Gilbert
Jane: Yes, loved Henry as a character and I loved his story at the beginning. I agree, Gen, he was an enormous influence on Alma and we needed to see what made him tick.
Lynne: I loved Henry and the story of his beginnings. I thought it was really important to set the tone for that time in history when scientific discovery was on the verge of blowing everybody's tiny mind. Imagine for hundreds of years thinking that a divine entity was responsible for everything and then have explorers and adventurers and academics start revealing their alternative theories - it would have been sensational. To begin to understand, in detail, what it took to start collecting specimens and get them back to safety under such trying conditions, given the protracted timeframes, made me reconsider the achievements of our forebears. Just amazing, and very impressed that Elizabeth Gilbert opened up that world and made it so compelling from the beginning. Henry was a rogue and I wanted him to succeed. He paved the way for Alma and I needed to hear his story before I could believe hers.
Carissa: Henry's driven character and experiences in England, overseas, in Holland and America help us to understand Alma's determination and attention to detail and research. His life in all these places and his attitudes set the scene for Ama's life and preoccupations.
Lucy - as you've all said the story needed that foundation. We would not have been able to understand Alma, the circumstance into which she was born, her doggedness, her intelligence etc if the story had started with her birth in Philadelphia. Henry also played such an important role in the whole story even after Alma took centre stage that we needed to understand him more deeply.
Sharyn: Now that I have finished the book, I can see how starting with Henry and his association with key scientific and exploration figures such as Joseph Banks and Captain Cook provided symmetry with the ending where Alma was associating with, or at least her ideas were on par with, key scientific thinkers of the day such as Charles Darwin. As Lynne said, it enabled the reader to see what an amazing time this was in terms of science and exploration.
4. Alma Whittaker grows up in the richest family in Philadelphia. In what ways does her father’s fortune set her free? In what ways is it a prison?
Mel: She has the financial means to be able to spend her life actually doing what she loves. This is a luxury, even in today's society, and so much more a luxury in the time that the book is set. I'm not sure that the money is her prison, but certainly her gender is. Having not married till so late and having it fail so badly there was no other option than to stay in the family home and do what was required of her. It is only after her father's death that she is able to break these shackles.
Lynne: well said Mel. I'm not sure the family fortune was responsible for shrinking her world, I think her gender was responsible for that, but she fought against it well; writing to other European botanists and publishing in journals etc. Her father also made a prisoner of her by relying so heavily on her and making her believe she was indispensible.
Carissa: Alma has access to Henry's library, plant houses, illustrious contacts, all the discoveries of the time and has absolutely no material hardship or privation. However, she is isolated from children of her own age, until Prudence arrives, and is very egotistical.
Lucy - Henry's fortune definitely allows Alma to fulfill her potential, from the massive library that laid the foundation for her vast scientific knowledge to the gardens and grounds she explored so much as a child. More so than the fortune in shaping her are Henry and Beatrice's attitudes to what she is and should be capable of contributing to society regardless of her gender.
Mel: Lucy - I think that doggedness is a great description for Alma!
5. Discuss Alma’s relationship with Prudence. Why do you think that Gilbert choose for Prudence to be the Whittaker’s adopted daughter rather than their biological daughter? What affect did Prudence have on Alma at various points in the novel?
Gen: As mentioned I had a real problem with the character of Prudence ... I guess she had to be adopted in order to make the character pretty??!!
Mel: I thought that Prudence was there to show what a difficult person Alma was to get along with, but Prudence ended up being far pricklier than Alma, and Alma appeared soft and venerable in comparison. Why adopted? I'm not sure. But as Prudence was adopted so late there was certainly no tug-of-war in terms of who was 'favored' in Henry's affections.
Sharyn: Yes, I agree that Prudence was a difficult character to understand. It seemed odd to me that someone who was so morally upright would be so emotionally void, cold, uncommunicative and elusive. And how many stunning people do you know who act like that so no-one pays them any attention?! I think it was the timing of her adoption more than her adoptive status which was more significant. Prudence came into Alma's life at a time when Alma's character had been formed, when she was aware of her strengths and weaknesses and after she had enjoyed the sole affection of her parents for a long time. It was natural for her to feel resentful, competitive and inadequate. Notwithstanding the fact that they did not have a close relationship, Alma clearly felt close enough to - or at least trusting of - Prudence to confide in her about George. Later in the book after Hannah reveals the sacrifice that Prudence made for Ama, Prudence acts as a moral compass for Alma.
Lynne: Prudence...yes, Prudence....what is your purpose? Beautiful and pious, stained by her mother's prostitution, she transforms herself into a martyr and I can't quite fathom why. I think she was adopted into the family to provide a daily reminder of what can go wrong if you don't follow the rules according to Alma's strict mother (and wasn't she a cold thing!). Alma was so used to being the centre of her parent's attention (and feeling loved and appreciated for her intelligence) that having an adopted sister that so obviously did not like her was a good way of keeping Alma grounded. She had to work hard around Prudence, and I admire her for trying when many of us would have given up.
Lucy - Prudence was obviously essential for Gilbert to develop the thorn in Alma's theory of evolution - the unnecessary self sacrifice that humans make for others. However, I feel she was very poorly developed as a character and was rather unconvincing at times. Adoption was necessary so that she and Alma were peers and Alma's jealousy and sense of competition could emerge but I felt that given the amount of time the two girls spent together and the sacrifice that Prudence made for Alma there would have been a greater sense of relationship between them. Even if Prudence had not wanted to draw more attention to herself in public she would not have been so cold towards Alma throughout their whole lives. It did not seem congruous to her character of philanthropy to be so unfeeling. I also found her an unsatisfactory part of the story.
Carissa: Prudence has to be adopted, in order to have no "blood is thicker than water" reason for her self-sacrifice. This is a perfect example of the conundrum that confounds Alma's theory of evolution. Their relationship is, in my view, unrealistically portrayed. Prudence shows no compassion, warmth, or even interest in Alma, with whom she spends most of every day. Alma yearns for some sort of closeness, but is always discouraged by Prudence's apparent coldness. This makes it impossible to understand Prudence's enormous sacrifice.
Sharyn: Prudence's purpose is much clearer at the end of the book. Now that I have finished the book, I think Lucy and Carissa have hit it on the head. Very insightful ladies.
6. One of the more unsettling themes of The Signature of All Things is Alma’s habitual masturbation. How does her autoeroticism fit into the rest of the novel, and is the book strengthened or weakened by its presence?
Mel: When Alma first took to the binding closet I was pretty shocked. It actually made me feel sorry for her as this physical contact and release was obviously so important to her and instead of being able to enjoy a fulfilling sex life with another person she was stuck in this ground hog existence of pleasuring herself and wondering and imagining what it might be like with another person.
Sharyn: This was one of the most refreshing aspects of the book for me. I don't recall reading a book set in older times that addresses this issue. I didn't find Alma's habitual masturbation sad (I thought it was empowering given her circumstances and how bold it would presumably have been for a woman to do that at the time) but I found it really sad when she wasn't able to have a sex life with Ambrose. The fact that she had overcome her insecurity about her body image, age and virginity to accept his hand in marriage and force the issue about sex, only to be rejected, would have been devastating.
Lynne: I didn't find it "unsettling" - I thought it was fantastic to encounter such a 'real' person in a novel. Of course sexual urges existed in the 1800's! It was brave of Gilbert to include it as such an unflinching & recurring theme in this book. I thought initially it stuck out like a sore thumb , but Alma's life is dedicated to discovery, so a little self discovery should be part of the bargain. That her urges were so strong (and frequent) certainly surprised me, but as Sharyn says, very refreshing. I think it strengthened the book. We have to accept our heroines and all their attributes, whether we relate to them or not. So good that female sexuality was not ignored, I was just disappointed for Alma that it went so unfulfilled for so long.
Lucy - I am not sure how much this added to the story for me. It was definitely diversion from the evolution theme and I guess the whole book couldn't be about moss, but I felt it was purely that.
Carissa: This theme is, perhaps, part of Gilbert's portrayal of Alma's isolation from relationships with others. It fits with her curiosity about all aspects of the natural world. It did not seem to strengthen or weaken the book, but was a consistent theme. The incident with Tomorrow Morning seemed less plausible.
7. Alma’s decision to devote her life to studying mosses is compared to a “religious conversion” (p. 163). In The Signature of All Things, science and religion often intertwine. Are they ever finally reconciled? If so, how? If not, why not?
Gen: I really liked the ruminations about the nature of science and religion, a never ending but fascinating debate... sorry no definitive answers from me
Lynne: ah yes, Gen, these questions could fill hours of contemplation, but who has the time in the 21st century for that?
Lucy - I found it very interesting to think how the debate between science and religion continues and how controversial Darwin's theories were at the time and how we still have not been able to reconcile these two. Alma feels that it is reconciled in her mind, she doesn;t need anything more than what she has been given in this world. I don't feel for a moment though that the novel reconciles the two.
Carissa: I thought the debate between the two was extremely well constructed and central to Alma's researches - as it was for Darwin. Although Alma resolved it for herself, Gilbert did not attempt to resolve it for the reader.
8. Alma’s husband, Ambrose Pike, offers her a marriage filled with deep respect, spiritual love, intellectual adventure-and positively no sex. Should she have been contented with this arrangement?
Mel: I think so. I would have. At her age, at that period of time she was very very unlikely to meet anyone else. We don't need companionship to be happy - but it sure does help! But good on Alma for knowing that she couldn't tolerate it and bucking the system of women simply putting up with whatever was going on in the martial bed. And at the end of the day - she never would have had life altering adventures to Tahiti and then onto Holland if she had have stayed married to Ambrose.
Jane: Yes, I think so. He clearly loved her, she loved him. But I guess Alma's physical sexual need (and maybe a need to feel desired physically) was a theme that Gilbert created and needed to continue. I thought these intercepts in the plot were so far-fetched, but equally made the twists and turns that made the narrative enjoyable. Quote from man friend David who is sitting here as I write this (and being a complete snob about Elizabeth Gilbert), "Don't build your marriage around sex".
Lynne: Its a tough one to answer when you know that Alma had a libido that demanded some attention. Your average 49 year old virgin would probably have been overjoyed to find a younger bloke, that could be considered her intellectual equal, willing to devote the rest of his life to a celibate relationship with her, but not our sex-pot. So, she busted a move on him while he was relaxing in the bath and it all went to hell, very quickly. I was shattered for her, but glad that she put an end to it when she realised that it would not fulfil her vision of a happy marriage.
Sharyn: Ahh, Lynne, I am laughing out loud while reading your comments on this one. Love your turn of phrase. Classic!
Lucy - This is another part of the story that I don't feel works very well. I don't understand why the marriage was important to Ambrose. Why couldn't they have continued as they were? Working alongside each other and sharing each other;s minds? It seems to me unlikely that he would have proposed but then how would Gilbert have ever got Alma to Tahiti? Although I also felt that the reason for her trip to Tahiti was also improbable.
Carissa: Gilbert described the feelings and aspirations of Alma and Ambrose extremely well, but I could only accept Ambrose's attitude in terms of his being inhuman. I found his character completely implausible.
9. Ambrose’s spirituality eventually destroys him, whereas that of the Reverend Welles, the Tahitian missionary, enables him to cope with isolation and professional failure. What is the difference between the two men’s spiritual understandings? Why is one vision destructive and the other saving?
Mel: I have no idea. Can someone please enlighten me?!
Lynne: it is this question that has haunted me since Mel posted these questions up a week ago. Am I so vacuous that I can't find an answer to this important question? Yes. Bugger.
Lucy - Ambrose's spirituality seems delusionary most of the time. It does not seem to be grounded in religious theory at all. Whereas Reverend Welles's is based on religious principles and doctrines. Ambrose's spirituality is highly self centred and is only about his own salvation, the antithesis to Reverend Welles. Welles lives his life according to the philanthropic principles of his faith, Ambrose will never be fulfilled by his spirituality because he wants to be an angel!!!
Carissa: As Lucy says, Welles is following religious principles of loving your neighbour, condemning nobody, serving all and acccepting differences. He is not remotely self-seeking. Ambrose is portrayed as gifted, but vulnerable, passive, fragile and completely detached from the world.
10. Alma claims at the end of the novel, “I have never felt a need to invent a world beyond this world. . . . All I ever wanted to know was this world” (p. 497). How has this limitation to her curiosity helped her? Has it harmed her?
Lucy - this was a good way for Gilbert to avoid a detailed debate or decision on the theme of science and religion. What I found more interesting and that I had not realised was how much Darwin stayed out of this debate. I was interested to hear that he did not respond either to praise or criticism about his work and was totally unconfrontational about or defensive of his work.
Carissa: I agree with Lucy's theory that Gilbert uses Alma's specific curiosity and its restrictions to avoid having to engage with the religious and scientific debate. It was extremely interesting to have this story linked with the publication of and reaction to Darwin's book.
sharyn: Lucy and Carissa, you are both on fire! Thanks for enlightening me.
11. Is there anything else you would like to ask or say about ‘The Signature of All Things’?
Mel: The book got me thinking about the nature of family and how we need our family so much when we are young and how we revert to that need at the end of our lives. Even though her family was small and fragmented, at the end of her life Alma had a warm relationship with Prudence and was taken in by her mothers family in Holland. After Tahiti I was worried that Alma would be set adrift completely and die all alone. I was so happy with her decision to give Holland a try and loved the members of her mothers family for taking her with such open arms (even if she did have to prove her intellectual credentials to her uncle to start with).
Lynne: I'm really glad I read it. I hope Gilbert now writes a sequel from Prudence's perspective. And then a 3rd novel explaining Ambrose Pike. Then we'd get the full picture.
Jane: You ladies are all so insightful and thoughtful. Also you all have a wicked and clever turn of phrase. I love reading your comments. Brilliant.